RIBS & RESTORATION & ELECTROLYSIS 35--
RIBS & RESTORATION & ELECTROLYSIS 35--
Dialogues with Warwick;
Gary I have a Swanson Carmen canoe stern, 30' long, built in 1962 for the Sydney Hobart race [she placed 5th in 1966 on corrected time, her sistership Cadence won]. She is planked in oregon with spotted gum ribs and has SS keel bolts and clenched nails.
My difficulty is this; some of the ribs are getting soft, which for spotted gum is unusual, I believe the cause is from electrolysis, the ballast has some oxidisation on it and some of the nails have either broken off inside or are showing green streaks on the paint work. Some ribs have cracks that appear as if it occurred early on in her life and may be a result from the hard bend into the bilge and/or over steaming. There is no doubt some frames have to be repaired.
Is it feasible to scarf in new timber as the frames are in good condition above the waterline, I would think that laminated frames would be the most simple.
Just how do I approach the problem where the frame is fastened into the keel timber behind the garboard, should the garboard be removed or can frames be replaced with garboard intact.
With the suspicion that I have of the nails below the waterline, would it be recommended to re-nail the lot.
Is it good practise to glue plugs into the nail holes in the planks and redrill new holes through the plugs.
The frame centres are 5 1/2" and it appears that about 20 or so need some attention [until the engine is removed I cannot inspect the frames in the aft end].
She is being slipped the end of July to dry out and given a more thorough inspection before I commence repairs. She has been a part of my life since 1974, I do not intend to let her die.
HELP
Warwick Ford
Warwick, The Fords;
Your craft is lucky to have such a caring owner. You ask questions that have as many answers as the people you ask them of, but I will give you the lot of my experience. Scarfing damaged ribs can create more problems than it appears to solve. The main drawback being that a hard spot is created and the rib no longer reacts to stress in the same way that it has for the last 30 years which means that all the stress dynamics in the planks, caulking, etc., also change. An older wooden boat has a structural memory and all repairs should disrupt that as little as possible. In an ideal world, where time and money, availability of materials, and good hull access were not a problem, one could proceed the "right way" i.e. remove the damaged ribs and replace them with new steam bent ones. Of course it is not an ideal world and thus with wooden boat repair there is always compromise. I would laminate new ribs in between the damaged and adjacent rib. Make them as long as the working space allows. I would chisel a notch in the keelson for the laminates to fit into. Garboard removal should not be necessary, but it does enhance your clamping options. I would only remove them if replacement was needed.
You do not say what type of metal your fasteners are, but I would assume if you have green streaks they are copper or some type of bronze, not a good combination with stainless keel bolts. I would refasten the bottom with monel, if you can find it, screws preferably or a good stainless. This would eliminate your electrolysis problem for the new fastenings. Unfortunately you won't be able to remove the old fasteners so the new ones will have to go staggered near the old ones. Before you refasten make sure the planks are snug against the ribs. If they have come away you will have to remove the caulking before you refasten. Since most of the old fastenings would be in place and continue to suffer deterioration and harm the wood as well, I would be sure the bottom is properly zinced, not too much and not too little and this may only be accomplished through trial and error and constant inspection. I hope this is helpful and feel free to ask more questions. If you would like more and possibly different opinions, you should post your questions on the bulletin board at www.boatbuilding.com. --------Good luck and send me a picture of this pretty vessel------- I know you won't let her die--------Gary
Gary,
thanks for your reply, I didn't think of the "hard spots" that scarfing may
cause.
Would laminating full length frames be an acceptable practise?.
I lean toward laminating as against steaming because the original frames, in
some cases split on the hard turn of the bilge, and I can laminate the new
frame to shape in situ, as Carmen has a very open plan.
She is splined above the waterline and caulked below, the nails are of
copper. The peculiar thing is that from what I can see without removing the
engine, is that most of the decay has taken place between the mast and the
front of the engine, in other words mostly in the middle of the boat.
Some of the ribs to be replaced is because of the cracks from her original
construction, but mostly because of the softness of the timbers, would
splining her below the waterline have an advantage?
I trust that I will not be a pest to you, I just need to gather as much
information as possible before starting on her repair.
A note about her construction, 30' overall, 24' waterline, 8'6" beam, 4'9"
draft, 3.5" by 1.25" oregon planking, 3" by 1" oregon shelf, 1.75" by 1"
laminated spotted gum ribs centered every 5.5", raised deck with 3" by 2.25"
laminated deck beams at 12" centres, half inch ply deck, cast alloy knees in
way of mast. A sistership "Carronade" was the first Australian yacht to
round Cape Horn, she survived a rolling on the way, Carmen herself was
rolled twice in one night on the way to Hawaii, these yachts are very
strongly built and all of them have survived.
Warwick:
Don't concern yourself about being a pest, short of working on a wooden boat myself helping other do it gives me great pleasure. I would guess the reason that most of your frame softness is in the center of the boat is because that is where the fastenings are in close proximity to the keel bolts. When a fastening suffers from electrolysis the wood adjacent to it suffers as well, taking on the appearance of soft rotted wood. Apparently the minuscule electrical current breaks down the wood cell structure. The construction of you boat is first rate, the only error being mixing stainless with copper below the water line. The keel bolts should have been silicon bronze or monel.
Laminating as long a rib as possible is the way to go. A problem occurs with steamed wood at a tight bend because the wood cells at that point shift 90 degrees to the normal grain flow. That is why you see a cross grain break at those points. Splitting a rib at those points before steaming can eliminate this.
Splines on the topsides are OK but not below the waterline. The bottom of a carvel planked wooden boat is made to be reworked every 20 years or so i.e. recaulking and or refastening. Also this type of structure is designed to flex and move and splines would inhibit this movement and cause the stresses to be more localized
possibly resulting in garboard failure. As mentioned before, if your planks are smooth and true against the frames you won't have to pull the caulking to rerib, but if they are not or if the boat has not been recaulked for 20 yrs or so, pull the caulking before you begin your work. Also try to avoid short laminated ribs for again they cause hard spots. Keep the questions coming------------gary
Gary,
I thank you so much for your assistance, it helps to know there is someone
"out there" who is "simpatico" with wooden yachts.
Carmen is moored in what is known as the largest marina in the Southern
hemisphere, but alas few of the yachts are timber, and, due to the size of
the marina all are strangers.
I inspected her more closely today and left feeling a bit overwhelmed with
the task ahead, the electrolysis was so subtle it just caught me out
completely unawares, as it got worse so did my eyes, I now need glasses. The
timber between the floor and the mast step has turned to powder, so, mast
out, of all the ribs I closely inspected today [56] 18 were cracked along
the turn of the bilge, but only through the top laminate [the ribs are made
out of 2 half inch pieces] 9 were decayed to leave no doubt they must be
replaced, because of the corrosion in the nails the scarf would have to be
way above the waterline, 27 ribs are soft particularly around the fastenings
and remain suspicious, I guess I will have to see what they are like when
she dries out, all ribs are damp.
With caulking, she has never been re-caulked in the 36 years I have owned
her, nor have I ever burnt her bottom paint off.
Is it possible to remove the old nails [drill or punch?] as I replace the
ribs?, and drive new and larger nails back through the planks, or would
screwing, as you mentioned before be more suitable.
Any advice is appreciated. many thanks Warwick
Warwick:
Sorry to hear the extent of the damage is greater than first thought, but fortunately it is all repairable. The only way to determine if you can get the nails out is to try it. Hopefully the planks have not been damaged by the electrolysis as have the ribs. I think you will find screwing the laminated ribs in will be much easier than nailing. Once you set yourself up to do the job it will go pretty quick but don't take on more than you can reasonably accomplish. The boat has survived in this condition for quite awhile so whatever repair may have to be put off now will most likely not spell disaster. I have seen too many half taken apart older wooden boats sitting on the hard abandoned because a well meaning owner had taken on too much all at once. Don't overwhelm yourself or the boat. You possibly should find a surveyor or local boatwright to give you an independent analysis of what the boat needs. If the damage is much more extensive there still are ways to save her, such as cold molding a skin over the existing hull, a technique that has given new life to some older classics but one that is not necessarily cheaper or less labor intensive than doing a traditional repair.-------------------------Gary
Gary, thanks for your encouragement.
I have myself seen older timber yachts sitting in the weather their timbers
gone all gray, abandoned and good only for firewood. I stand to lose a yacht
worth $A50,000 by doing nothing, selling as is [not really an option] she's
worth ??? who knows. In 1984 I completely stripped the interior down to the
bare timber and repainted the lot, new furniture [she was a racing yacht and
had only pipe cots, ugh!!], new cockpit floor, new keel bolts [discovered
that one of the original bolts was never fastened to the nut!] new alloy
stick, new wiring and a new Yanmar 15hp engine.
In 1995 I started a 3 year task to refurbish the decks, wherever there was a
nail or screw, water went down and caused decay in the ply, I rebuilt the
lot and dynelled the deck and replaced much timber and new cockpit seats
[which nearly cost me a finger as the circular saw jumped out of a cut and
went 3/4 through my right hand little finger joint] I strengthened the cabin
top and steam bent and glued timber edging on it, [I should have a scanner
next week so I can send you her lines and drawings, the cabin top was really
a spray dodger out of a thin sheet of 'glass], in all I guess that what I'm
trying to say is that I am not a quitter, by the inch it's a cinch by the
yard it's hard.
I have negotiated with a hardstand to take her out and begin the one rib at
a time repair, I'm sure that after the first few ribs it should get
progressively easier as the knack and skills will come to hand. I will take
your advice and have a seasoned timber boat shipwright look her over to give
me an independent assessment.
The next thing to consider is how to build a shelter over her in the yard, I
have seen one where the owner used plastic waterpipe for a frame and covered
it with black plastic, it worked for him, he was in the process of gluing
veneers to a timber yacht, as you mentioned before.
Do you have any ideas on how to make a shelter? the aforementioned shelter
didn't allow easy access to the interior of the boat. In reference to
veneering or glassing her, I believe that I would still have to do all the
necessary repairs anyway, that being the case and the added expense, I would
prefer to repair/restore her in the manner she was built. Once again I thank
you, there are moments when yes I do feel overwhelmed by the disappointment,
size and expense of the task ahead, but I know I can do it [with help and
encouragement].
Warwick;
I had no doubt from your first email that the vessel was in good hands. I will give you encouragement along the way and I would love to see pics of her lines and specs. I have little experience with temporary boat shed construction but here in Maine I see many of the lobstermen build sheds with light timber and then have them shrink wrapped in white plastic. Seems to work really well. I assume they use shrink wrapping in Australia, many here cover there boats with it during winter months. I would think using black plastic might make the inside a bit hot in a warm climate. Well, carry on, and I am here to be called on for advice or just a chat------Gary
Gary,
thanks for the reply, today I took to the boat an acquaintance that has a
lot of experience with various methods of repairs to timber yachts. The
first thing was to measure the electrical current flowing through the hull,
it was 150 milli [volts or amps or something], it seems the wetter the
planks get the more current flows, this explains why the paint is getting
"blown off" the interior planking [something about hydrogen] and the through
hull fittings are covered in fuzz.
The short of it all was his recommendation to dry her out clean off the
salt strip her back to timber in and out sister ribs alongside every second
rib epoxy saturate the interior up to the waterline and either veneer or
glass the hull, he felt that traditional repair would be too involved and
expensive considering the amount of ribs and possibly planking to be
replaced/repaired.
I have an appointment to survey the boat with a shipwright who has some
considerable experience with carvel yacht repairs, so I shall see, as you
said there are many ways to answer the questions.
Warwick;
Good you are getting on hand opinions. The more you discover and the more you convey to me, I think the first order of business is to take care of the electrolysis problem, which unfortunately, no matter your choice of repair, will continue unless it is resolved. Sounds to me like the keelbolts are the culprit. Change them out to silicon bronze or monel and if there is any other stainless below the waterline get rit of it. You current readings tell the story, but make sure you were not taking the readings in a marina where the water could be full of stray current. There is a slight possibility that stray current in the marina could be hugely magnifying what normally would be a fairly minimal current caused by the differing metals on your boat.------------Gary
Gary, the engine is out and now sitting in my rather crowded garage, I am
sore from the effort, it would have been so easy if I cut out the cockpit
floor to remove it. It is only a little Yanmar 15hp twin, but gee it weighs
a bit in a cramped space.
What joy, after the engine was removed more cracked ribs,[another 3] all
along the same plank line and on the starboard side.
The more I look at this, the more sisters make sense, I doubt that scarfing
would work, mainly because of the salt water saturated timbers and who knows
what has been spilled into the bilge, diesel etc, epoxy glue probably
wouldn't take. With some of the ribs I can't get at them to scarf anyway,
the bilge is too deep and narrow, sisters would, I guess, have to be screwed
in as I can't see how I could possibly clench or rove the nails. Anyway she
is up on the hard in one of the prettiest yards I have ever seen, birds,
trees, mown lawns it's like a place to have a picnic, except it's a
multihull yard!! I'm surrounded by the enemy!, there has been much friendly
banter. Time is being spent building a device with a ridge pole so I can put
covers over ehr and keep off the rain and sunplus the gum leaves, leave the
leaves for a few days and you have permanent stains.I'm still hanging out
for the scanner. Gary thank you again. Warwick the terrified.
Warwick the terrified:
Thanks for the update. I know how you feel, full of trepidation and doubt. Once the first sister goes in, these feelings will give way to excitement and conviction. As you progress with the sisters you will feel the old girl tighten right up and that's a great feeling. Your choice to sister is a good one as is using screw fasteners. As mentioned before, although it is slightly more difficult, a better job is had by spacing the new ribs in between the old, not directly alongside one or the other. This displaces the stress more evenly and spaces the fasteners so as not to weaken the plank anymore then necessary. Seems like you have a beautiful spot to work and that always makes a difficult job more pleasant.
When I have laminated ribs, the two biggest problems are keeping the pieces aligned and pulling them together against the hull. The first was overcome by making a jig slightly wider than the slats and placing it over the stacked pieces to keep them aligned. Next I would have a piece of flexible steel flat bar, roughly the length of the rib, with many holes drilled down the center and put that on top of the stacked pieces. Then devising a small screw jack assembly that when wedged from above will put the pressure needed to squish the flat bar and slats together against the hull. I then would drill some bolt holes in appropriate places along the predrilled flat bar, through the slats and plank, and through bolt the whole mess, remove the alignment jig and the screw jack, clean up the excess epoxy and then wash myself down with vinegar and go outside and screw it in. Once set up you can undo the bolt nuts and remove the steel then replace the nuts. The holes in the steel should be larger than the bolt size. Several such steel pieces of varying lengths should be on hand. A piece of wax paper between the steel and the laminates ain't a bad idea. Simple, heh? The first one will take 2 hours, the last 10 minutes.
You might come up with a better way---keep me up to date -------gary
Gary, thought I would give you an update.
It took several weekends just to build a cover over the boat, next week a
new tarpaulin arrives that will keep sun and rain off her completely, in the
meantime I have removed the rudder, the engine and prop shaft plus half the
engine bearers [so I can get into the stern]. Half of the port side interior
paint has been removed with a heat gun, some timbers look better than I
thought, a number of the frames are still soft particularly on the bottom
end of them.What do you know of Hempitox?
The money for the scanner I spent on tools.
Warwick;
Thanks for the update. Tools are a better use of your funds than a scanner. I can visualize exactly your dilemma. I know nothing of Hempitox and a search on the Internet just gives me sites in foreign languages, but I assume it is an epoxy that revitalizes fatigued wood. I am suspicious of chemical fixes, especially in high stress areas like the garboard plank area on a sail boat. You need good strong fasteners in this area to transfer the enormous loads throughout the boat. Sounds like you have come a long way in your prep work which is half the battle. Remember to label the pieces you remove so you can get them back in the right place. More then one time have I ended up at the end of a job scratching my head trying to figure out where certain pieces go. Left over pieces is a no no. Keep me abreast of what's going on. ---gary
Gary, the update.
So far the paint has been stripped off about half way, phew not easy work
trying to work around the furniture, I wish now that I could remove it [the
furniture]. The shipwright that put it in had a love affair with glue and
ring nails, unfortunately I would have to destroy it to get it out. Funnily
enough the paint below the cabinsole comes off really easy with a heat gun,
it seems the hydrogen from the galvanic process was at work more vigorously
down there than further up the planks.
Joy oh joy [sarcastic voice] I have found decay in one of the floors around
the limber hole, nice and black and soft, this is the floor that is at the
aft end of the mast step and through which a keel bolt passes, just when and
how does one replace this? furthermore one of the structural supports of the
cockpit to the frame is in the same way, I guess as I strip paint I shall
find more. The positive thing tho' is that some of the frames seem to be
better than I originally thought.
I'm becoming a professional with a heat gun and a triangle scraper, but oh
the blisters!
Warwick:
Thanks for the update. You have both good news and bad but it seems the good wins out. If the bad wood around the limber hole is not too extensive, just make the hole bigger, but if it appears structural, pump it full of penetrating epoxy and sister a new floor next to it, fastening with drift bolts into the keelson and screwed through the planks. All in all it seems you are coming along well and so far have not unearthed anything to horrible. Keep up the good work and keep the updates coming--------gary
Gary,
the floor that I last spoke to you about now has some decay on the top
starboard arm [it is a Y shape] I don't know how deep it goes but when I
removed the paint, the timber was powdery, this raises 2 questions.
1. what is the feasibility of removing the floor, is this difficult? just
how are they attached to the keel, it does have a keel bolt through it.
2. Is it feasible to cut out the decayed portion and laminate new pieces on
to it.
I have been spending my time removing pitch from the bilge that was poured
in to fill the spaces between the frames and keel, this is like removing
thick cold chewing gum.
Warwick.
Warwick:
I was wondering how you were coming along. Still got your nose in the bilge I see. Floors are traditionally attached to the keel with drift bolts, large fabricated nails pounded down through slightly undersized drilled holes. There is usually a washer on top which the head of the drift is peened over. Sometimes the floor is also screwed into from the planks and sometimes not. Unless you can get a hacksaw blade under the floor to cut the drift bolts, the floor would have to be split out. I would tend to laminate where rotted and also nicely fit, bolt and glue, a 3/4in piece on either side of the floor. This wood strengthen it considerably. Of course the ultimate is to split it out and replace with a new one. No simple solution with the tar, although heating it up might make the job a little easier. Presently, since I am wooden boatless, I am a bit jealous of you, even as onerous as the job is-----------------gary
Gary,
I cannot see any sign of a fastening in the floor, so is it possible that
the floor may have been fastened from underneath through the keel?
The pitch becomes harder to remove when heated, I tried that with a heat
gun, I will try something that chills it, I believe there is a product in a
spray can that does this, this will make the tar brittle and easier to
chisel out, I hope.
Interestingly the fuzzy timber is beneath the cabin sole and in the
pockets where the tar was.
Warwick:
If that particular floor is located where there is no deadwood under the keel, then it is possible it is fastened from underneath. Usually fuzzy wood results from the moisture and oil in the wood being leeched out into another substance such as cement or maybe in this case the tar, or from electolysis.--------gary
Gary, I now have a scanner, yippee, I think I know how to work it.
The attachment is a line drawing of the boat.
To date I have now removed all paint inside below the waterline, it took the removal of the cockpit floor tho', a number of planks will have to have new pieces scarfed in, particularly around the stern where a steel plate was fitted to take the thrust bearing for the prop shaft. Disappointingly decay has also made a home in the stern post around the flange through which the prop shaft runs, it looks repairable as the rot does not seem to travel deeply, but what fun eh? I figure a dutchman fitted will do the trick and to do it when some of the planks are removed. [that's why the cockpit floor was removed, the Multimaster was a great help].
Belatedly I hope for you that you had a good Xmas and a happy new year.
For us 2000 was Annis Horribilus.
My boat was declared and my 15 year old daughter had a brain tumour removed and whilst in surgery had a stroke, I know shit happens, my complaint is about the excess quantity of it.
Warwick
Warwick:
Sorry to hear about your daughter, just remember, if what life brings to your door doesn't kill you, it will just makes you stronger. I hope she is recovering well. As a Father I know what it feels like to have your child hurting.
Thanks for the boat update and the PICS. Sweet no nonsense lines. I see why you are willing to go through all this to make her right. I am a bit jealous. Happy New Year to you and your family as well. Keep the updates coming and your dutchman solution for the shaft log sounds fine. Since your messing about with the shaft log, check out the stern tube, if you have one. On older boats they are usually lead or bronze, or sometimes just the wood. It might be a good time to replace it with a fiberglass tube liner which electrolysis wise is inert.----------------g
Hi Gary,
I thought I had lost your contact, my computer went down with everything in it wiped out, no, I did not back up with a floppy, I lost everything!!!
I found a piece of paper with your e-mail on it, so, to date I have now removed all the anti-fouling,ugh, what a horrible job, so slow, I used a heat gun and now I know every plank in the boat.
I am looking for a piece of spotted gum to make the laminations for the rib repairs, one yard has some in a kiln and will be ready at the end of this week.
Question, I assume that kiln dried timber is ok for the job?
Thanks Warwick.
Warwick:
I am glad you did not loose me. Ideally one would use air dried lumber for laminating because it has a little more water content and bends better than kiln dried stuff, although I have used kiln dried successfully. If you were to steam the frames you would want fairly green timber.--------------g
Gary, today I removed the port side garboard plank.
Gees what a job, much swearing and a headache, the difficult part was
getting the caulking out, after that [caulking] was removed I had to prise
the plank out with wedges driven from the inside.
Question, what methods are there for getting out the caulking? I've got the
usual file with a bent tang, is there anything else?....Warwick.
Warwick:
Hell of a job, I know. There actually is a reefing iron made just for that job but they are difficult to find. When I have a lot of seams to do, I usually use a small 6in circular saw with a batten tacked to the boat as a guide to keep the blade centered on the seam. It is tempting to go freehand but inevitably you will chew up a seam which is OK if your replacing the plank but otherwise a no, no. Set the blade length to 3/4 of the seam depth. Also wear safety glasses, stuff flies everywhere. Use an old thin blade, a dull blade tends to grab the caulking rather than cut through it. I have seen others use routers but they tend to mess up the > bevel of the seam. After you run the saw down the seam a follow up with the bent file usually does the trick. With seams you can't saw use a large screwdriver onedge and tap with a hammer at right angle to the seam i.e. tap the shank.
Can you reuse the old Garboard? Have fun & be careful with the saw.-------g
Gary, thanks, and yes I can reuse the old garboard, it also has no bevel on
it, just flush. Getting the putty out isn't so bad, it's trying to grab onto
the caulking!!!!What do you think of sheathing?;that is double diagonal cold molding out of
4mm veneers? I have just seen an old 1911 gaff rigger that has been done,
the hull is next to be glassed, her name is Curlew and the job done is
excellent, very professional, what are your thoughts on this method, I can
certainly see the merit in it for Carmen. What do you reckon?
Warwick;
If you have cotton or oakum in the seams they have to have a slight bevel other wise you couldn't drive the caulking because it would just go through. I am not experienced with cold molding but what I have read indicates that it is an acceptable way to revitalize older wooden boats without having to go through a total rebuild of the hull. But it is agreed that the cost and labor involved is about the same as the more traditional way of restoration. The way I see it, if you restore a carvel planked wooden boat the way it was built you will not change the stress dynamics plus it will be easily repairable should that be necessary. Adding a rigid skin over what is meant to have flexibility could cause unseen problems. In Florida they get another 5 years out of a wooden boat by tacking on chicken wire and adding a coat of cement. Of course this eliminates any hope of true restoration because the cement pulls all the moisture out of the wood. The one problem I have seen with cold molded boats is that after about 8-10 years delamination occurs. Even with the miracle glues water is still the universal solvent. The beautiful thing about plank on frame construction is you can easily repair it as time and water takes its toll.---g
Gary, today I removed the other [starboard] garboard. I realise that when
the yacht was constructed they must have been in bit of a hurry, or the
garboard was put on, on friday afternoon, they ran out of monel screws and
the buggers used 6 copper nails, probably couldn't wait to knock off and go
to the pub. I find it difficult to make a neat job of drilling off nail
heads. Nothing out of order on the starboard side, good access now to attend
to the ribs. The wire hook I made was so so, I can see the benefit of a
proper tool, took a while to remove the oakum, in some places it kept
breaking, I could get the wire hook behind it and then I had to use the flat
of a file behind the wire to lever out the caulking, does that make sense?
The garboards have no bevel on the top side but are bevelled on the bottom
where they abut the keel, the plank above the garboard is bevelled.
So where do I go now? I guess the next step is to select the ribs to be
replaced, I find it interesting that as the boat dries out, the ribs have
firmed up, except for the obvious few, from around the mast to the engine
beds. After the ribs have been repaired I propose to repair the necessary
decay in the planks, and of course if I'm ever bored, to continue removing
caulking, hmmmm, think I will hunt down a reefing tool, or maybe try a
circular saw with a batten for a guide. I believe there is such a thing as a
seam saw, do you know of such a thing? I think it is a special blade for a
circular saw. ANY ADVICE is, as always, really appreciated.........warwick
Warwick:
It doesn't seem like you need advise, you have all well in hand. Yes, the next step is dealing with the ribs and Yes, they probably ran out of screws or maybe that garboard had been replaced once before. The beveling of just one seam side is fairly common but you must be careful to maintain that bevel or you won't be able to caulk her. The removal of the caulking is always a bear and most who do it end up fabricating there own tool. Try the small circular saw with a guide batten, I think you will find it easier than the other options. I have not heard of a special blade for that purpose. Of course, the easiest way is to get someone else to do it. As the water dissipates from the saturated ribs, they will appear and feel stronger but in fact they are not. For clamping purposes you may also want to remove the shutter plank, the last plank fitted, which usually lies along the greatest turn of the bilge. Keep up the good work, I can tell by your humor that your having a bloody good time of it. Are you still in Summer there?-------g
Shutter plank? that must be a U.S. term, I can see the merit in removing it
for clamps on the ribs, you lose the fear of pulling bits off after a while,
it's good to see how these boats were built. I think that the boatbuilder
who built Carmen for himself was in a bit of a hurry, not only nails in the
garboard, but the two keel bolts that were never fastened to the nuts, when
the original bolts were replaced in 1984, the shipwrights were amazed to
find the two nuts full of cement!!, the cement was used to fair up the
ballast, nothing surprises me anymore and given her age when I have her
finished she will probably be in better condition than when they built her
as all hurried/mistakes will be ironed out.
Last night while I lay in bed I was thinking about the rib replacement [I
always think things through before I sleep] would a small plunge router
1/4"drive, be suitable for removing nail heads?
When I was drilling off the nailheads in the g'board, I found it difficult,
the drill would eventually run off and into the plank.
Yes it's still summer here, plenty of humidity but the temperature has been
reasonable, today it's 28/9 and S.E. winds about 20/25 knots with showers,
expected change will bring temp of 33, and sunny.
Warwick;
Yes, pulling stuff off gets easier and easier. Make sure you mark everything. I have often gotten into a job thinking I would only have a few pieces to put back and not bother about marking them and then , ofcourse weeks later I end up with many more unmarked pieces then intended not having a clue where they go. You definitely will have a better than new boat when you are done. The plunge router with the right bit or maybe one of those portable drill press jigs for a portable drill that would help keep the drill aligned might work. Most all the planked boats I worked on that were nailed I would end up splitting the planks out and replacing them. I like you, solve problems before sleep or sometimes in dreams. When you work on wood boats you have to think out of the box. Creative solutions is the name of the game.------g
Gary, today I picked up 2 by 50 by 200 by 2.25 metres of spotted gum and
delivered it to the machine shop where they will cut it into the laminates
for the ribs. It's exciting to think that I'm actually going to be putting
something back in the boat, question tho' the original ribs are 2 by 1/2
inch laminates unglued, when I replace the rotten piece would it be better
to laminate and scarf 2 by 1/2 inch pieces rather than make up a solid 1
inch piece, does this make sense?
Just which measurement is comfortable for you metric or imperial?
........Warwick.
WARWICK:
I am better with imperial measurement. I am a bit confused by your question. Are you laminating up full ribs in between the old ones or are you scarfing laminated pieces onto the old ones? Are you going to laminate in place or on a jig?Are your original ribs laminated without glue or are they steam beant 1in thick by 2in wide? I have only seen laminated ribs without glue when they are fastened to the planks by rivets.-------g
Gary, your confused, you should be inside my head sometimes.....
The existing ribs are made up of 2 pieces 1/2 inch by 1 and 3/4 inch wide,
the finished rib therefore being 1inch thick by 1 and 3/4 inch wide, steam
bent.
I intended to scarf onto them 6 laminated pieces 4mm [I don't know the
imperial] by 1 and 3/4 inch, the question is would it be better to laminate
the new rib in two pieces 1/2 inch thick and then scarf onto the existing
rib, this way I would match the dynamics of the original structure.
Maybe a drawing would make it clearer.
Warwick:
So, the question is whether or not to glue the two new 1/2in laminates to each other and the existing rib. Since you are not riveting the ribs to the planks I would tend to epoxy them on because the old girl could use the extra stiffness. Also check the old ribs carefully and see if they are not just intentionally split solid 1in ribs. Often the solid rib is split at the top and bottom to help the bending. Yes, I can imagine the chaos in your head, it is part of the price of owning a wooden boat.--------------g
Gary....
today was the day , start replacing frames/ribs, it was a sort
of suck it and see. Chopping out the old rib was the easy part, the first
one was a broken rib and the timber on the break was powdery, however it was
mostly good elsewhere tho' it had a smell of diesel, however it's out.
Cutting and fitting the new piece, now that was fun!!!, 6 laminates make up
the whole piece and spotted gum is very springy, I made up a length of
timber that I clamped athwartships and cut a few notches into it so I could
brace from it to help hold the new laminates in place, I used a heat gun on
each piece to bend it in situ.
It worked!!!!
The brace was notched at the rib end 1 3/4 by 1inch, this and a number of
wedges held the laminate in place and as I added laminates to it I removed
wedges. All of the nails I punched out were good except for one which was
corroded at the plank/rib join.
Gluing will be another task, I need more information on gluing spotted gum
as it is a very dense timber.
All in all it was a good day, I can see the advantage of removing furniture,
the second rib I started on, each laminate had to slide under the settee
bunk frame, the big difficulty is cutting the scarf.
For the scarfs I cut a step for each laminate 2 inches, this gives me a 10:1
ratio, the steps were easier to cut than a standard scarf thanks to the
"Feine Multimaster" and a power spokeshave [angle grinder].
Any comments?............Warwick.
Warwick:
Congratulations, seems like you have the process pretty well figured out. The only part I don't understand is the scarfing. It doesn't sound like you are scarfing the new ribs to the old but that is all I can think of. The hardness of the wood doesn't effect its gluing usually it is the oil in the wood that interferes. With teak you wipe it down with acetone to remove the natural surface oils before gluing but since I am not familiar with the characteristics of gumwood I can't offer good advice other than slightly roughen the surfaces before gluing. I commend your perseverance and keep up the good work. Figuring out the process is the hardest part.------g
Gary, sorry about my inability to get things across, yes the new rib is
being scarfed to the old but...., instead of the usual 10:1 gradual scarf, I
have adopted a stepped system, this means that there is no gradual slope,
rather it goes up in steps with each overlapping length being 2", this still
comes out at 10:1 [if this is not enough I will increase it] but does not
have the difficulty of trying to feather edges in, as you can imagine this
would be difficult to do on the existing rib let alone the new one made up
of 6 pieces that will not lie in a convenient curve together so I can plane
them at leisure. Which brings me to the next challenge.
With the curve of the rib and the pressure and clamping required, I have
concerns that if I glue them all at once the epoxy will be squeezed out, so,
I either glue one or a few at a time or use resorcinol formaldehyde where I
can squeeze and clamp the crap out of it and it still works, providing I can
get a perfect fit.
I have spoken to several epoxy companies about the timber and 2 of them
advise to wipe the timber over with either acetone or Metho after a rough
sanding.
What do you think of all or any of the above??? Warwick.
PS. I really wish I could glue them all up on a jig outside the boat and
just fit them in with no bevelling required and no springback, I also wish I
could win the lottery too.
Warwick:
I got it now, sounds OK. Scarfs of structural members are usually 12:1 but 10:1 with your step method will probably be fine. I have laminated on jigs and with a little testing and experimentation to determine the extent of springback it worked fine. If I were you, considering the amount of laminating your doing, I would try the jig method and if for some reason it doesn't work go back to the in place method. There, no doubt, will be places that a fully laminated piece cannot be fitted in and you will have to resort to the in place method. I would also experiment a bit with the epoxy glues. In the long run, the time needed for tests and experimentation will amount to time saved overall. You explain things very well, you just get a little ahead of yourself at times.-----------g
It is done and I feel exhausted.
All went well on the dry run, clamps and braces worked well, all laminates
fitted nicely and then......
What a difference the glue makes, now I have a slippery mass of sticky
disobedient wood. The twist in the hull made it awkward to keep everything
in place, eventually I got it right, the pot life makes you go harder to
complete the job before it goes off.
I think that now I am "experienced" the next rib will be easier as I know
what to expect. I often hear that the one thing you never have enough of is
clamps, aint that the truth.
I must have more of the quick clamps, the one handed job.
I would like to explore the usefullness of a staple gun, or maybe brads
would be better, there must be another way. The jig would be usefull except
for the twist, how can I get around that?
I need a good wash to remove glue from my hands, amazing how that stuff
seems to get on you like it has a mind of its own, and yes I wear gloves, I
constanly change them as the glue gets on them,well now I must wait 24
hours to see what I have done and how it worked.
Warwick.
Warwick:
Congratulations. When you said you were all done I thought you meant done with all the ribs, not just one [kidding]. The first one is the bear, the others will increasing get easier until by the last one you'll know how to do it. That's why it is better to do new tasks on someone else's boat before you do your own. I can't help you with a simple way to conquer the twist but I am sure you will figure one out. If you are using an epoxy glue, I have recently been told that vinegar works good for clean up. Check out my new home page on the MM site. A picture of the 45ft yawl I was partners in. A 1939 Shock design for racing from California to Hawaii which she won the first time out. I worked on her for 3yrs. We won that master mariners race but were disqualified for going on the wrong side of a starting line buoy. I am the one in red.--------g
Gary, yes vinegar helps to clean up epoxy, I think it takes out the
hardener, not sure but i've been using it for a while. Lying in bed late at
night I thought up some more ways to help control gluey laminations, will
let you know how I make out.
Beautiful yawl on your home page, you must be the bloke in red with the
beard?
warwick-------yup that's me----wind got up to 50 knots that day. Look forward to hearing your new ideas, the best ones come right before sleep.-------g
Gary, fixing ribs lesson 2. dowell the nail holes in the old scarfed rib
before laminating over the top so the new fastening screw will take hold.
bugger!!
Warwick:
Sorry, I forgot to tell you that one. Everyday your learning something new. Here's a trick for making a lot of plugs at once. Take a 3 to 4inch piece of 4x4, mark a line all the way around about 1/2 inch in from one end. With a bandsaw cut narrow V's down to the line on one side. It should look like this VVVVV, Now on the adjacent side do the same thing and you will end up with a bunch of spikes you can break off and use as plugs. There triangular tapered shape secures them in the hole, but a spot of glue can be used as well.--------------------g
Gary, lesson 3. I have just spoken with a representitive from H.B.Fuller,
who make epoxies for the space shuttle program and aeronautical epoxies as
well. The rep has a lot of experience with spotted gum and said it is one of
the most, if not the most difficult timber in the world to glue. Oh great!!!
There is e technique however to make it work, yuo have to coarse sand the
glueing edge, wipe over with metho and then wipe on with a spatula the
epoxy, there is only a short window before the pores in the timber close up,
the epoxy has to be wiped on firmly to get into the pores, after that glue
as normal, isn't that great to find out now. The ribs are being backed up
with 10g 1 1/2" silicon bronze screws, I hope that will help hold up the
first rib, otherwise how can I find out if it's ok. Do it again? any
suggestions?...........Warwick.
Warwick:
Unfortunate discovery, but good to find out now rather then when you were finished. Knowing this I would tend to rivet the ribs, first using bolts and or screws to secure the laminates in place and than use rivets [ roves] on the rest. At least this way if there is any glue failure the rivets will keep everything tightly bound together and the loss of strength will be minimal.
I've been wanting to ask, How is your daughter doing?-----------g
Hi Gary, you asked after our daughter, well she is ok but all is not well,
the Endocrinologist has given us a pessimistic review as they think there
is a problem with her thalamus, this regulates temperature and weight
amongst other things. Our girl has gone from 41 kilos in September to 55
kilos now, the weight just keeps on coming, they think her condition may be
incurable.
Gary, today I fitted the third rib and all went well, as you said it will
get easier as I go along, I think I have the knack now on how to wedge,
block, clamp, etc to stop them slipping and sliding around.
I've started on the 4th rib, this one is a short one as the decay in it was
under the forward cockpit upright, does that make sense? The piece I cut out
was only about 6 inches long and the shape is rather flat, this will be an
easy one, I will be able to make a standard scarf at both ends, the rib is
well up out of the bilge and the timber is in good condition at both ends.
The plank underneath has some localised rot around the nail holes, I was
wondering would a plug suffice or should I put in a dutchman?
I don't know how deep or how much rot in the plank yet, it was something I
started to do prior to going home, now I will ponder it every night until
it's done, bugger.
Warwick
Warwick:
I was just wondering how you were coming along. Both good news and bad news about your daughter. I have found through experience that supposed incurrable conditions diagnosed by western medicine is not seen as such by other cultures. I have had success with Chinese medicine especially acupuncture and I like how they perceive the human body as a system of energies that need to be kept in balance as compared to the western perception of the body as a machine with parts that need fixing. The above comparison could apply to boats as well as everything else.
Back to Carmen. It seems you are making good progress. The rot in that rib under the cockpit could have been caused by freshwater leakage. As to whether a plug or dutchman is needed in that plank, if you have to ask the question you already know the answer, a dutchman ofcourse. Keep up the good work. I have seen an old woodie with beautiful lines sitting in a field. I may be emailing you soon for some expert advice on laminating ribs.--------------gary
Gary, yes I would think you're right, the rot probably came from a
freshwater leak, I can think of no other explanation especially as the rot
is mostly down the after side of the rib.
The first plank only requires a dutchman as the rot only goes about 1/2"
down, the nail hole in it will need a small plug, all in all just a small
fiddly job. The next plank down however the rot seems to go deeper, almost
through but only 2 1/2" wide, I guess this will need a small section scarfed
in at 8 to 1? The third plank just has some softness on the surface and
maybe a treatment with epoxy would sort this out.
Any hints on cutting a scarf in the plank?
Warwick
Warwick:
Good news on the planks. With large scarfs one can use jigs and power tools but with small ones I am afraid the good old sharp chisel is the only answer. Once the female part is beveled you cover it with some chalk so you can see how the male piece mates up. Have fun----spring is trying to happen here but we still have snow on the ground. Are you downunder getting ready for winter? How will that effect your work on Carmen?------------------g
Gary, this is Queensland in sunny Australia, winter here is beautiful!!!!
During the day shorts and a short sleeved shirt is the go, long pants and a
cardigan or jumper after the sun goes down, the humidity drops right away
and the days are just so clear, it's the perfect time for working on old
salt saturated boats.
Gary,
I have replaced 5 ribs so far , the process is slower than I would have
liked, but that's the way it is. The latest piece of learning concerns the
planks and the holes in them from the nails, where the nails were severely
corroded, and I mean severe, such as a nail barely 1/16" in diameter, the
plank needed drilling out and a plug fitted to take the new screw, this
method is becoming standard fare. I now have the gear to cut 5/8" by 1"
plugs and do it as matter of course, except where the plank was fastened to
the rib with monel screws, in that case no rot. I have also learnt that the
longer the rib the more the rib wants to "lay off" due to the curve fore
and aft of the hull, my method here is to glue up 3 laminations at a time,
this way it is easier to control the twist, perhaps in this case a steam
bent lamination would be marginally better than a heat gun bent laminate.
Got to go now and cut a lot more plugs.
Warwick
Warwick;
Thanks for the update. Sounds like your figuring things out pretty well. Wood corrosion caused by steel fastenings can be a real pain in the butt. Your solution is a good one as it is with the rib twist. I have never tried gluing up steam bent pieces when the boards were still hot. I'll have to try that. Keep up the good work. Spring has finally come to Maine, lots of rain and mud.-------------------g
The Warwick ford recipe for replacing ribs.
1.remove old rib.
2. remove nails
3. clean up planks and inspect for decay after drying with heat gun if
necessary
4.inspect nail holes and mark those to be drilled and plugged
5.hammer tight fitting dowel into nail holes that are to be plugged [keeps
speedbore from wandering]
6.wedge scrap timber behind nail holes to be drilled to prevent inside plank
from splintering
7. use speedbore to drill new holes into clean rot free timber
8.cut scarf into the remaining rib
9.cut timber laminates to fit scarf
10. use heat gun and place new laminate [one at a time] into position and
wedge or clamp so new laminate will assume correct bend as it cools
11.sand all laminates with coarse paper and coat with epoxy with TPRDA [CPES
in the U.S.] coat plank area where rib lies
12. apply epoxy glue and clamp the lot
13. clean off excess epoxy
14. glue and fit new plugs into planks
15. have well deserved drink.
Warwick:
Most impressive list. If you saw that list before you began, the drink part might be # 1 instead of # 15. Seems like you got the process well in hand. I also had no luck with the Aussie boatbuilders site. Did you try emailing him?--timber_boatbuilder@yahoomail.com---- keep up the ribbing---------g
Gary,
pity the file on nails won't open, not surprised tho', we have computer
problems, seems my eldest downloaded millennium 2000 over windows 98 and now
all sorts of peculiar things are happening, the printer won't print etc,
hope to reconfigure soon. The nail picture I sent shows the worst and
average nails I have pulled out so far, the worst has about 10/15% of it
left, the average shows thinning at the rib plank join, where they often
break as they are removed, they are not all like this to be sure only in the
timbers that have advanced corrosion, some nails appear to be in good
condition except for a coating of copper oxychloride.
My latest task has been to refurbish one of the floors, I removed it for
the hell of it and to check it out [leave no stone unturned etc], just as
well, the floor is made up of two pieces cut to shape from a solid billet
and then riveted together with copper [1/4 inch]. It all seemed a bit loose
upon removal so I cut the rivets in half to separate the floor, the rivets
had lost a good amount of their content just like the nails, so I have
drilled out the decayed timber and have made new bolts [3/8 inch] and had a
foundry make up gun metal nuts and washers for them.
Of course while all this is taking place another rib is being laminated, all
I need now is a supply of # 10 silicon bronze 1 3/4 inch screws at the right
price, the marine chandlers here hold a gun to your head as they fleece you
for them.
The weather here has had a bit of a cold spell, today is 21C and humidity
47% the sun is shining and not a cloud in the sky.
Warwick.
Warwick:
Thanks for the update. Sounds as though you are persevering in rather good shape. Seems as though the electrolysis pretty much spread everywhere. How are you removing the old nails? A task I have found damn near impossible. For silicon bronze fastenings check out Jamestown Distributors -- Boatbuilding and Woodworking Supplies for the Boatbuilder -------g
Gary,
thanks for the Jamestown site, wow! so many silicon bronze screws and would
you believe about half the price I have to pay here!!! even with freight
added it is still cheaper than locally and proper bloody screws too, none of
this narrow shank stuff, just wish the Aussie dollar was performing a bit
better, choices, choices, slotted or square drive? what would you use?, by
the way a frearson head is known as a phillips head here. I will order a
couple of hundred as soon as I can get my hands on my wife's credit card,
I'm not allowed to have one and with good reason.
The only nails I've removed have been clenched, it's a bit messy, I have to
pry the inboard end up with a screwdriver and either file it flat or cut it
off so my 1/8th by 3 inch punch can drive it back thru' its, a bugger if the
nail breaks inside at the plank /rib join as the shard can go in any
direction, the plank side is no big deal as I will drill and glue a plug
anyway, usually tho' I have no trouble because I have split off the rib
anyway in preparation to replace it.
Warwick:
Glad Jamestown worked out for you, they are the best fastening supplier around.My choice for the screw head would be the fearson head which is not a philips head, they look alike but on the fearson the grooves end in a point whereas with the philips the grooves end at a flat spot.With the fearson you get a better bite with the bit . If you get the fearson heads also get some proper drivers. The problem with the square head is that water can settle in the square and fascilitate deterioration and the slotted heads strip too easily.
Your fastening removal technique sounds right on. Here's another good boat supply and wooden boat traditional tool supplier. www.toplicht.de-----gary
Gary,
Fearson heads are something not heard of here, at least in the yard where I
keep Carmen, there is a posi-drive, maybe that's it? I have to check with
Jamestown as to freight rates but otherwise looks good. Did another rib
today, I estimate that it takes about 1 and 1/2 days to complete a rib there
is so much mucking about, cutting, heating, bending drilling grinding,
glueing, wedging etc.
I have almost completed the main companoinway section, maybe 2 to go and
some cosmetic repairs, just a few small splits in the ribs that aren't full
thickness, 3/8 deep, guess I'll cut a small laminate and try to fit it in,
the nails aren't holding anything at that point so I shall screw it. Soon I
can put back the companoinway floor!!! at last I will have something to
stand on, what relief.
Warwick:
Ah yes, seems you have rounded the corner and see the end in sight. Congratulations. I hadn't heard of the fearson head either until I bought some silicon bronze screws, but they are indeed an improvement over the others. Keep up the good work and before you know it you'll be broad reaching across the bay without the worry of popping a plank.---------------g
Gary,
a question, what size screw would you use a 10 or 12? Today I put in a few
2" #10 and I managed to break 2 of them, the plank is 1" the ribs are 1 and
1/8",hardwood, and I do mean hardwood, what would you use? Warwick.
Warwick:
For a 2 inch screw I would use a # 12. Also you should use a tapered bit to make the hole, they make them the exact size for the fastening with the plug countersink attached. Jamestown should have them. Also get a bar of soap and drag the screw across it before you put them in.-----------g
Gary,
thanks for the info', the number 10's are to weak in the shank for the
thickness of rib, I kept drilling a larger hole to lessen the tightness and
in the end it became ridiculous to the point that i thought I would have to
put epoxy in the hole with the screw to take up the slack! The few number
12's that I used were much stronger and could be driven in harder.
Gary,
it was suggested to me that the galvanic corrosion in Carmen may have been
caused by a build up of copper on the hull from the antifouling. Have you
ever heard of such a thing? Warwick.
Warwick:
I have heard that putting copper bottom paint directly over exposed steel parts, like a shaft, is not a good idea but to be the overall cause of the extent of corrosion you found in Carmen is unlikely. I think the most likely scenario with Carmen is that she was docked in a hot marina, ie a lot of stray electricity in the water caused by others using ungrounded extensions and appliances on their boats, plus improperly wired batteries. I know on the boat I lived aboard I had to change the zincs every couple of months.----------------------g
Gary,
another day another rib, geez it gets tiring always having your head lower
than your bum, I counted up the ribs I've done so far.
In a group of 20 ribs, 10 a side, I have replaced 10, with 6 being on the
s'board side. All these ribs are around floor #8 which incidentally is the
floor I had to repair, these ribs and floor is situated in the companionway.
The length of rib replaced would be about 25 to 50% in length, I have also
started scarfing them in at 15:1, it makes it easier.
Warwick
Warwick:
Well, your half way there. Since so much of the electrolytic damage occurred around the companionway and the engine sits right behind that area as often do the batteries, you might want to check for stray current coming from improper grounding or loose wires. You don't want all this work to be for naught.---------------g
Gary,
I have a few cracked ribs to replace in the stern, the challenge is they are
let into the sternpost, I cannot get at the point where they are screwed
into the sternpost because of the plank fastened over the top.
Question is, is it good technique to cut out the section of the plank that
covers the base of the rib and glue back in a portion . I just wish I could
send a drawing. Warwick.
Warwick:
Unless you can pull off the entire plank and replace it, I would find another solution. The integrity and strength of the plank is in its unbroken continuance, that is why short plank sections are a no no. Is it possible to chisel out new notches in the sternpost from the inside of the boat?--------------g
Gary,
the next best solution may be to remove nails from the end section of the
plank, enough to prise it out to give access to the bottom of the rib.To
chisel another notch in the sternpost would be extremely difficult.
I have been putting of repairs to the stern end as I knew they would be
hard, due to access, however I now have sufficient experience to tackle it,
just not the know-how.
Warwick:
Sounds like a plan. Sometimes the know how emerges from necessity. It seems like every wooden boat rebuild presents unforeseen and unique problems. Solving those problems is part of the fun, in spite of sleepless nights. RIGHT?----g
Gary,
two questions.
1. Some of the ribs are split up the grain especially on the turn of the
bilge, is it kosher to cut off the split piece remove the nails around it
grind it down and glue in a piece of laminate, the depth to which I have
done this is about 1/8" to 3/16", and refasten with #10 by 2 and 1/2" long,
[12 gauge Aus], screws, the timber underneath being in good condition.
2. In one plank there is some decay about 6" long how deep it goes I don't
know yet, I have to remove the piece of rib covering it. Can I if the rot
goes only say 3/8" deep simply grind it out and glue in a graving piece [or
dutchman] or would I have to cut out the section of plank and put a new
section in and spread it over two ribs with butt blocks on the inside?
I have removed floor number 9, phew!! twas difficult as it has two keel
bolts through it and of course they are splayed, I ended up getting a car
jack underneath to get it out, one of the bolts has some crevice corrosion
in it, these are 316 SS.
I love the project but sometimes I get tired of having my head lower than my
bum . Warwick
Wawick;
1. If the rib is split on the flat, vertically, that is intentional to make it bend easier when installed. If it is split in another way your plan is a good one.
2. Yes, if the depth of the damage is slight an engraving piece is in order. Anything over 1/2 inch is another story. If you have to replace it , 6 feet or over is in order anything shorter doesn't displace the stress well enough.
3. Yes, having your butt higher than your head most of the time can cause hemorrhoids in your ears, so be careful.--------------g
very good, haemorrhoids in your ears. ha ha like it.
could explain things, it's not industrial deafness after all, I will cancel
my appointment with the ear, nose and throat specialist and see a
proctologist instead.
The split in the ribs is a tear up the grain as if the bend was too tight, I
have repaired two so far and seems o.k.
The plank with the decay, I still don't know how deep it goes, I was tired
and went home. The rot was under the rib only and looks as if it may also
have spread to the plank below, its peculiar how it has just followed the
line of the rib. It dosen't look good tho' one of the nails pulled thru' too
easy. Bugger. Warwick.
Warwick:
Yes, a proctologist is in order, he probably will prescribe ear suppositories, not fashionable but effective. Sounds like you have the situation with the plank and split ribs well in hand. Keep working this way and you'll put yourself out of a job.-------good sailing weather here now, I gotta find a boat and the time to use it----------------g
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
question: gary,
I am going to be hualing out my 1952 vertue to laminate frames as the originals are pulling away from the planking at the garboard. There was concrete laid on on the ballast and the frames do not go any deeper then that , I was going the chisle holes in the concrete to place the new laminates into, my questions are 1. Is chisling an opening in the concrete the best way the go, and what do you recommend that I do about sealing that opening once the laminates are in place. Any additional tips would be appriciated, seeing how this is the first time I am doing this and I do not want to create a whole new round of problems, becuase of something I overlooked in the process.
Thank You
Joe
Joe;
Your plan sounds aok, I would first question whether you need new ribs or are the fastenings bad. If you had space between the cabin sole and the cement you could add some floor timbers which would stiffen up the whole area. If you do need some new ribs, laminating is fine as is chiseling the cement to receive the foot of the rib. I would fill the remaining gaps with expanding cement. Make sure the foot of the rib is thoroughly sealed with epoxy or whatever [tar] so the cement doesn't pull out all the moisture. Good luck and as you move along feel free to ask more questions also take a look at Dialogues with Warwick on the Questions page of my website, he also is laminating------------gary
Hi Gary, sailing? what's that?
glued in the 56th rib yesterday, about another 10 to go, since I last spoke with you I have made another two new floors and fitted the last one of these yesterday as well.
So in all there will be 66 ribs with the bottom 20% to 50% repaired, all screwed with silicon bronze 10g and 12g screws.
I went up to Cairns in far north Queensland for a holiday and saw "Carronade" the Cape Horn Carmen, her owner has done a lot of repairs to her, replaced and added new floors plus two ring frames, all to tighten her up, he's done a good job of it. However I think she's terminal and all the repairs are just bandaids over the cracks, as I looked into the bilge there they were, a line of cracked and broken ribs all along the hard turn of the bilge exactly the same as Carmen, no wonder she was loose and leaking.
I have done a lot of reasearch and thinking about this project since we last spoke and I have arrived at a conclusion of which way to go with this.
Seeing as how I have glued in all the ribs to the planks the logical outcome was to continue with this process, so I have removed each floor again and given them 3 coats of epoxy and will sheath the entire hull with two layers of 1/8th veneers diagonal and a final layer of 'glass to finish it off, all floors with be screwed and glued in place and the interior will receive two coats of epoxy, in other words I am going down the track of Tim and Pauline Carr as they did with Curlew. I have been through some of the archive of Wooden Boat to check on this process and remained convinced it is a suitable way to go with this boat given its age and problems. Hull splining starts about Xmas time, I have to order a specially made blade to cut the seams with a 10 degree edge for the wedges, any comments?
Warwick:
Nice to here you are persevering and have gotten so much done. I think the cold molding is a bit over the top but since you glued the frames to the planks you changed the stress dynamics of the caravel hull and committed yourself to the whole process which is fine and you'll have one strong hull. Too much epoxying for me. Keep up the good work. All well here in Maine, winding down from the summer--keep me up to date---------Gary
Gary, 4 ribs to go!!!! light at the end of the tunnel. I don't mind the epoxy work, have an inexhaustible supply of latex gloves. Cold molding a bit over the top? I suppose so, however she'll be strong, stiff and dry. I read up as much as I could find, spoke to a few individuals who have done this or worked on yachts having it done, I now remain convinced that this process is the way to go when a boat gets to the stage my Carmen was in, a "traditional" repair would have only been putting a bandaid over the wound and as such not a cure. Time will tell, I am being as thorough as I can.
Warwick;
Way to go-you'll be sailing in no time. I think the cold molded process for older boats is great. By over the top I meant that usually when you are going to revitalize a wood boat in that fashion you don't have to be very particular about the condition of the skeleton structure since the cold mold needs little support. But the bottom line is when your out there and it's blowing 40 and green water's hitting you in the face, a little overkill in the boats structure can relieve a lot of worry. I will be eager to hear how the laying-up and gluing of the outer skin goes. You are a man of patience and persistence and probably a bit stubborn as well------------gary
Gary;
I guess the replacement of the ribs is a little over the top, but I just couldn't sit there looking at them all, cracked, broken, soft, rotten and leave it, pride would not allow it, I have even replaced the butt blocks, screws and all, she will look like she was when she was new, a carvel planked boat.
After the splining, the ballast will be removed, new garboard planks fixed on and then the interesting bit, she will be rolled over for the laying up, gulp!!! I find that bit scary.
I am taking photo's as I go along and keeping a dossier on everything I have done including all receipts, patient, persistent yes stubborn? I asked my wife that and she said to tell you no, not stubborn, but very determined and focused.
Any advice you have would be gratefully received, whilst I have found sufficient information on this process there is always more to know. I do not intend to over epoxy the interior, just enough to be a stabiliser for paint to adhere and a barrier against solid water but little enough to allow vapour to travel freely, I live in a humid environment in the summer.
Warwick:
Seems like you have it all well in hand. Quite an adventure. Document the process as you say you will and put a how to book on the market. You may recoup your expenses. I can be of little help on this one, other than to give you moral support. Keep me up to date-------------g
all ribs are DONE yahoo!!
63 I have repaired out of a total of 128, I am now looking for a price on
300 12g 50mm and 600 10g 50mm silicon bronze screws, I have already put in
about 300 screws so far, that will total about 1200 screws, damn, sure is
expensive.
Now in the process of putting in the engine beds.
Warwick;
All right, another reason for celebration. I get all my fastenenrs from www.jamestowndistributors.com, although the shipping costs my not make it worth while for you. When do you start glueing on the strips?--------g
Gary
Splining is next after all the screws have been done, today I spent hours putting in the last floor in the engine bay, this floor holds the thrust bearing and was a devil of a job to line up the prop shaft [which has suffered from electroysis and is absolutely stuffed] so I could drill the hole for the shaft to go through the floor and line up exactly with the thrust bearing that it would slot into, anyway without a lot of grumbling it is done!!
Tomorrow I will actually put the floor in and secure it with 14g screws, then the next task is to put in the engine bearers, that task is only difficult 'cause of the lack of room to move around, then screws and then splines!!!, you know it actually seems as tho' I'm getting somewhere.
My right knee sent me home early today, I reckon I must have been up and down that furshluginer ladder at least 30 times.
Jamestown prices are right, it's the freight that is the killer.
Warwick;
If you have a sailboat under 40ft, the engine area is a real bear to work in. Although I did work on a boat or two that had the engine more amidships, very nice. Soon you'll be working outside the boat and your knees and back will get a deserved break. The end is in sight.---------g
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Warwick Update 7/2010
A couple years have gone by and Warwick has continued on the restoration of Carmen. As the photo shows, he finally chose to cold mold strips over the existing hull. A good choice but if he had made that choice in the beginning much of the interior structural work could have been avoided for layered diagonal stripping over a planked hull creats and extremely strong hull needing little structural foundation. He did a great job---well done Warwick!!!!
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